SPEAKER_02 0:00

Ever since I was a little little girl, I wanted to write and talk to people and find out secrets and tell everyone about them, popped along to the then editor there and asked for a job and promptly got turned down. Not once, not twice, but three times.

SPEAKER_00 0:16

Often in the UK we're not very good at doing that either. We like to see people fail.

SPEAKER_02 0:19

I'm quite a big believer in being vulnerable. You know, nobody's perfect. I think if every single person who's made a success of themselves in real estate could go back to their home school and tell their story in an open and honest way, then there wouldn't be any behaviours that would need to change.

SPEAKER_00 0:43

Hi Sam and welcome to the Built to Perform podcast.

SPEAKER_02 0:46

Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_00 0:47

Thank you for coming on. Um, so what I'd like to do is kick things off straight away with just going in and understanding what brought you into the industry. Obviously, it's uh a slightly different story to most I guess.

SPEAKER_02 1:04

Yeah, I guess so. So I never knew that I wanted to work in the real estate industry. Uh I always knew I wanted to be a journalist. Um, so uh ever since I was a little little girl, I wanted to write and talk to people and find out secrets and tell everyone about them. Um, and the tell everyone about them was why I never ended up being a spy, um, because it wouldn't have been very good. Um, but no, I wanted to be a journalist, so went to university, did it did all that, and kind of fell into real estate, I suppose. My first journalism job was um at a um uh magazine called Cater and Hotel Keeper, and I got to be the hotels reporter and so started to interact with people in the the real estate world um there and um really enjoyed it. Uh uh the business that owned Cater also owned Estates Gazette, as it was called then and is called now. Um uh and I uh popped along to the then editor there and um asked for a job and promptly got turned down. Uh not once, not twice, but three times. Um and eventually he realized that I didn't take no um as an as an uh answer very well, so um uh caved and gave me a job and uh yeah, sort of um started as a rookie reporter at States because then worked my way up to editor there, loved it, um, loved the journalism, obviously that's what I always wanted to do, but really started to fall in love with the world of real estate, the people in it, the um the things that it that it did. So became quite passionate about the role that real estate plays in creating places, spaces, um, delivering for people. Um and towards the end of my career at EG, really sort of um found myself more in that um championing and challenging the real estate industry, championing it for the good that it was doing, and challenging it for where it wasn't maybe wasn't quite up to um the standard we know it can be, and also challenging it to be better at communicating what it does do well in the role role that it played. Um uh and so yeah, when my career at um EG came to an end and there was an opportunity to step into this role at the the BCO as um chief exec, um just felt incredibly, incredibly right. Another opportunity for uh me to uh really be part of the real estate industry, I suppose um switching sides a little, little, little bit, but um really bringing the the knowledge that I had built up over 20 years of real estate journalism and um certainly those communication skills that I hope I have uh helping um our sector anyway, and at the BCO, the workspace sector, the office sector, um really showcase actually how vital it is for um you know sort of development in the in the widest sense of sense of the world. Uh so yeah, that's the the wiggly route, I suppose, to where I've got to today.

SPEAKER_00 4:24

Yeah, and what does your day-to-day look like at the BCO?

SPEAKER_02 4:29

God, not sure there is any day to day-to-day. Uh it's um so we're a um a membership body. Uh we are um you know dedicated to enabling excellence in in workspace, and we do that through numerous different different routes. You know, we're um you know, best known, I suppose, for our for our guidance um to help sort of calm the chaos that there was in the um development and construction um industry. We deliver more than a hundred events every every year. So that means the days are pretty pretty busy. Um we're delivering lots of lots of research, and um there's no real um uh sort of standard day, I suppose. Lots of interacting with as many members and industry as I can. Um, you know, uh we've got a small but um perfectly formed team of 10 of us that are interacting with all of our wonderful committees, all run by volunteers who are active in the in the industry and just trying to ensure that we are providing the research, analysis, education, and events for people in the workspace industry to to learn and network and and you know sort of build their build their careers.

SPEAKER_00 5:43

So over your career, you've obviously been bridging journalism and real estate, and I guess kind of what did that position allow you to see that maybe others couldn't see?

SPEAKER_02 5:54

So it's a really good question, and I think um I didn't really see the difference until I'd um been a few months into the into the BCO and I'd be been talking to uh a lot of our members and really understanding what it's like to be an active participant in the in the workspace world. You know, when you're in journalism, and and journalism is a brilliant job, by the way. I'm not gonna knock journalism at all because it's one wonderful, um, but you do um move to a different beat, I I suppose, and your um your role as a journalist is to tell stories, um, the truth, obviously, but also you've got to capture attention. Uh, and in a world where our attention spans are shorter and shorter, you you tend to go for um you know, those headlines or those opening paragraphs that you know are going to capture um um people and get them to stop and stop and read a little bit. And I think the biggest um I guess um moment for me where I thought, huh, this is different now is where, you know, when I see headlines about massive rents being achieved, and actually, and you know, a a lot of these will be put out by the um the people achieving those rents them themselves. But as a journalist, you read that as um, and I think as a general Joel Josephine, you read that as, oh, look, here's all this money being made. And but the real story, I think, that we that I now see on the other side is actually what goes into having to achieve that that that rent or whatever the the headline might might be. There's you know, there's so much that goes into it. And the what we never tell as a journalist, probably because it would be boring and no one would want to read it, is what the margin is, and actually has that changed at all, even though rents might go up, the margin is probably staying the same. So I think there's that you just get a different viewpoint of what goes into making a building work that I think I never really quite got to the minutiae of when I was a when I was a journalist.

SPEAKER_00 8:19

Do you think people would share the margins?

SPEAKER_02 8:22

Um I don't know. I think they should. Um perhaps perhaps, or at least uh, and again, this goes back to being able to tell your story better. I think um our industry needs to get better at talking about the challenges that it that it faces in a way that isn't um heard as poor me, which I think it often is. Now nobody wants to um uh you know feel sorry for a developer or a landowner, do they? Um, but actually there are moments where you should because there is huge amounts of pressure that go on to um developers um to to deliver best in class space, and it's not cheap and it's not easy, and there is no one really that is helping there, you know, perhaps the developers include included, because that we're not telling those stories in the right way that that land on a ear that is willing to listen.

SPEAKER_00 9:22

Yeah, we have a bit of a sharing problem in in the industry, don't we?

SPEAKER_02 9:26

Um, yes and no. I think um one of the things that I have been most blown away by at the BCO is the capacity of our members to share the good, the bad, and the the ugly. And um I'll share a story from my first BCO conference, which was last year in Milan. Hard place to go to, of course, which uh um and I went along to um one of the one of the parties that we that we held held there. We all know this industry likes to network, network hard. And um, you know, I thought I'd been I've done a lot of um industry events over my 20 odd years in the in the sector, and I thought, oh, you know, I was a bit tired. I thought you um, you know, pull your big girl pants up, Sam, and get out there and get ready for this. And I thought I'm you know, I'm gonna have to endure another um big networking event. Um, and I went along to the BCO event, and maybe this is because I was no longer a journalist. So I guess there's a caveat there. But I was so delighted about the conversations that were being had because they were very real. Uh, very everyone was wanting to lean into each other and understand, well, what are you working on? You know, what are the challenges that you're seeing there? What are the what are the opportunities? The the sharing that went on there was incredible. And that maybe that's because it's a safe, safe space. So I think in those situations we're actually very good at good at sharing. And and um, you know, there's a big movement at the moment with lots of um lots of participants in the market signing up to this circularity and practice pledge where they are sharing, this is how we're doing it, how can we learn from each other? Um, but I don't we're not we do that it we do do it in a safe space, and I think we need to get braver at sharing outside of that.

SPEAKER_00 11:31

Yeah, agreed. And so what does two decades of reporting on this industry teach you that you can learn anywhere else?

SPEAKER_02 11:39

Oh, um I think um, well, I don't know because I haven't, you know, I've always been in real estate. I did a tiny a tiny bit of um uh when I was doing my journalism degree, I thought I wanted to be a fashion journalist, which don't laugh at. Um uh and did a tiny bit in there. I didn't learn anything useful there, I don't think. Um, but I've only really ever known real real estate. So I don't know if it's taught me anything that I couldn't learn elsewhere, but I think it has taught me a lot about um cycles, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:15

You know, what goes up always comes down and but what about kind of my I guess you know because you I wouldn't say you're always you're out you're outside the industry, but you had a more of an aerial view, I guess, of of commercial real estate. Yeah. So it's what have you learned there, which you probably couldn't learn if you're you were within the in industry, properly entrenched.

SPEAKER_02 12:40

Um I don't know. I think it's probably the other way around, isn't it? That if you're properly intent entrenched, if I can say the word, you learn more. I think um as a journal as a journalist, and I said I wouldn't bash journalists, and I this isn't me bashing them, you're um you borrow a lot, right? I guess uh you maybe you learn to listen better uh when you're outside of the industry and you do have a more objective view because you have you have to. Um so perhaps the yeah, the sort of skills that I've learned there that I couldn't have picked up being in inside were having that ability to take a step back out of the world in which you um sit and listen to different opinions. Um but yeah, your job as a journalist is to really borrow intelligence from other people, um, put it in a format that can then be consumed by everyone. Maybe that's a maybe that's a skill that yeah, you pick up.

SPEAKER_00 13:47

And then have you have you ever covered a story, say, earlier on in your career or at a point in your career which you thought was really important and then has taken the industry a lot longer to catch up?

SPEAKER_02 14:00

Um uh yes and no again. I think um uh towards the end of my career at um EG, I was really passionate about EDI and um it would um push the industry, I suppose, quite hard to to make change. And we all know it hasn't moved fast enough at all. Um but I did I was always really surprised by how easy it was to push on that door. You know, there was um not everyone. I you know, I got a few letters from people uh who weren't um overly happy that I was using the pages of a commercial property magazine to talk about um diversity. That that wasn't what it was for, it was for you know, deals and yields and all that sort of stuff. Um but I mainly got people saying actually, thank you for challenging us. How how can we how can we be better? And it was um, you know, there was quite a big lesson in that, actually, that you can, you know, we can talk of this industry not being very good or not moving fast enough. But actually what we all have to do is lean in and go, okay, well, how do how do we move faster and how do we work together to to move faster? You can't you can't just bash with one hand all the time. You have to you have to offer a a solution or um you know a opportunity to to come together to to be better. So I think you know it's it it's probably around round um Edie and I. I think we are we have got a million times better than even when I started in the industry, but we have got a long way to go.

SPEAKER_00 15:59

Yeah. And how can we get better?

SPEAKER_02 16:01

I think it is about um uh really go, I don't know actually. I know I was about to answer it with a um um a formed answer, but I think I think there's lots of things that we can do, but I don't know what the whole solution is. I think we're doing really well at um getting people into the industry um uh initially from a gender perspective. Um I think we're we've still got a big social mobility issue to um to work around in in real estate. And I think that comes back to that story, storytelling. We're not talking about what it is that you can do and what it is that we do as an in industry. Um, I think we're getting better at having um brilliant uh women in positions of leadership. Uh, you know, Joe McNamara um becoming CEO of British Land in September is a point in case, you know. Dame Helen Gordon, as she as she will be at um Granger holding that position. Um we're starting to see movement there, but we have got this lost middle um still. Uh and I think we just have to we have to be sharing the sharing the data, we have to be sharing our stories of um challenge, um, and we have to be really working with not just uh the next generation of um people coming into this industry, but their parents too, I think. You know, you've got to um help people see that there is a career to build in in real estate, you know. If it's um often there's pressure, isn't there, on parents to be a lawyer or a doctor or an accountant, perhaps, but uh you'd never really hear unless you're already in it. Yeah, someone pushing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. When you grow up, son, could you be a building surveyor?

SPEAKER_00 18:09

Well, seeing as my father was a building surveyor, then yeah. They did say that. They tried everything they could do to keep me out of the industry, actually. But um, yeah, it's one of those things that you you you grow up around it, you you end up knowing more about it and you fall into it, don't you? Yeah. Um, but yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:26

But do you think you fall into it, or do you uh I always say that I've actually fell in love a bit with real real estate. Do you feel do you feel that too? Sorry, I'm doing um journalist thing and asking a question.

SPEAKER_00 18:38

Um I when I was younger, I did everything I could do not to get into industry, but I wouldn't want to be anywhere else now.

SPEAKER_01 18:46

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:48

But it it's also changing my role in the industry as well, is really important for that as well. So yeah, it's a it's a difficult one. Um, always always just trying to escape it or do something slightly different than what my dad was doing, I guess. Yeah. Um, but then yeah, ended up being doing exactly what my dad did.

SPEAKER_02 19:09

Yeah. Well, maybe that's the campaign we need. Don't don't follow in your parents' footsteps, join us in real estate.

SPEAKER_00 19:15

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, don't be a lawyer, come come come into the industry.

SPEAKER_02 19:20

Come and create an amazing building or a place, or you know, there's there's so many brilliant roles and jobs, isn't there? In the, you know, if we look at the whole of the built environment, if you want to save the planet, if you want to create places that people are happy and healthy in, yeah, exactly. I think we've got those jobs.

SPEAKER_00 19:41

Yeah, and it's not just I think people think of real estate as a place as a piece um around that, but actually the majority of the job is around relationships.

SPEAKER_01 19:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:51

And if you want to have relationships and be spending lots of time with other people from all different walks of life, it's an amazing industry for that.

SPEAKER_02 19:59

Yeah, yeah. And I think in once you're in, incredibly warm and incredibly help helpful, isn't it? We've just that you know, there's that friction of how do you get in and um and make people feel welcome and able to come in. I think there's still some areas where that is not easy.

SPEAKER_00 20:22

No, and on the EDI front, EDNI front as well, it's also keeping them in the industry as well.

SPEAKER_01 20:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:28

Like I said, about lost middle, especially in the women's side of things. You know, we've had um the server partnership on on this podcast, and we talked about that side of things and what they're doing to, you know, keep people, women in the industry at a certain age and level as well. Yeah, which is really hard to do.

SPEAKER_02 20:46

Although I do think there's a responsibility for men there as well, because I get um I always get I I don't have children, um, but I always get a little bit irritated when we talk about um the lost middle and women going off to have children and then having to be the main caregivers. And there's usually two people in a relationship, and um uh uh and you know, we never we don't really talk about same-sex couples as well when we talk about parenting, and you know, the the responsibility needs to be equally split there, and I think, and you know, I'll do a massive shout out to um Tim Burke, editor of Estates Gazette, my um former colleague of mine, because I always thought he was a brilliant example of a dad taking responsibility for his kids. He would always leave the office early because he wanted to go and pick up his kids. And um I just thought it was a brilliant example to set the and you know, because you often you would often see um, you know, stereotypically a woman leave early to pick up the the kids and if uh if a guy did it would be like why is he leaving early and it j I just thought it was um and I don't know if he realised that he was um sort of setting an example but I th I I just loved it that he would say no it's really important to me that I go and you know be the caregiver. Yeah. Um and I think we need a bit bit more of that.

SPEAKER_00 22:24

Yeah I I think I'm fairly honest and open about that side of things in my my side of the career as well. I I've got two young children obviously commute in and so does my wife as well so it's it's a split we it's a juggle as well it's fun um but yeah I I also talk to everyone who's willing to hear it I I get up at 4 30 in the morning. The only reason to do that is that I can be there for the evening to do be there for the evenings with the children sort of things and I find it it's it's so important yeah for me. Yeah but also the my team and everyone else can see that I'm doing that and there shouldn't be any sort of judgment on that.

SPEAKER_02 23:06

Yeah yeah and that's completely that it is it's hard work right isn't it to have that balance uh I remember doing an interview uh um a long time ago now and it was with Granger and it was um they had three women in board positions at at the the time and um um the discussion was around oh you know superwomen how you know you've got these high profile jobs and you've got um kids and it was like you know it's really hard and you can't do it on your own and they were talking about you know the um privilege of being able to have support whether that's um from a you know child childcare support or you know it is getting up at 4 30 in the in the morning because you gotta make you got to make choices and and and I think we've got to talk about that a bit more as well that it's not it's not easy but it can but it can be done and people need to understand along the way. Yeah it's having that support network you know we we can do what we do without you know our mother-in-law for example who who lives five minutes away from us so you know we we can do it so yeah it it is it's interest it's interesting um going back to the industry I guess on on everything actually do you think as a sector we're good at being honest with ourselves or do we sometimes need people like the press for example to to force the more difficult conversations um I think we all of us need a little help to be more honest um it's very easy to um fall into the trap of uh only looking at the good good stuff um I I think we as an industry can be better at being honest I think there are areas actually where we we know the size of the problem that faces us um and we're pretty good at talking about that I think we are often hindered a little bit about what we can say and what we can't she says very carefully um but I think you know if you are um there's so many outside pressures isn't there that are coming in if you're a business if you're a public facing business I don't think you can always be super one well I think it's difficult isn't it because I think you can be honest but you there's sometimes things that you can't share in its entire entirety you know if you are a listed firm particularly now and you know that you've got a sizable problem with let's let's say um the Mies regulations if you come out and are really honest about that your share price tanks and it makes it even harder for you to come up with the solutions to um to do things so I think um and I'm not suggesting by the way that anyone's anyone's uh covering up there because I actually think we have been really honest about the the issue um but I think we can be more honest in asking for help actually I think that's where we're not very good um you know there's a um there's a very real issue isn't there at the moment around um I think quite a lot of people in our sector would love to be able to bring many buildings back into into use but it's so incredibly difficult um particularly with the um VAT position on retro retrofit um and I think we all know that but are we being brave enough to honestly say you know this is the damage that that will will cause you know um we know because we know that if we say to any government of any persuasion well actually could you give the property industry a tax break on this we know what the answer will be won't we but it there's a story to tell there isn't there going back to stories about the impact that enabling those buildings to come back into life will have from a the positive impact from a um you know tax receipts perspective we'll probably probably get more coming into the government but we're not we're not brave enough to tell that honest story perhaps yet watch this space yeah what's the biggest difference I guess for you in terms of your role now in terms of from critiquing reporting on the industry to now leading part of it um the biggest difference is not having a daily deadline and uh having uh cortisol spikes every every morning at 5 a.m that really is the biggest difference I'm being I am being honest there um but I think the other the other one is um really this better deeper understanding of the what goes on behind the behind the curtain um and um that's all coupled with the ability to be a little bit more subjective in my um campaigning for the industry I I suppose or champion of the in industry I can be and should be pro-office you know that is um that is my um role now in a previous role it was much harder to be um you know pick a pick a single single thing and be you know entirely pro that you had to be very very object um objective um the only bit where I was I suppose was around that ADNI which I think encompasses everything yeah and has anything really surprised you from since moving over uh just that uh we touched on it earlier just the uh um the openness of um people within our our community at the at the BCO anyway to share those um failures as well as the the the wins um I think that that's been really eye-opening to me and you know I'd never worked for a um a business like the BCO before and uh again the volume of people who give their time expertise um you know sort of heart to the work of the BCO while doing pretty intense day jobs um that that has been in incredible I didn't expect that at all and it's quite um you know as a journalist you're sort of um cocked to be pessimistic about everything and and then you um move into a role like this and it and you suddenly see the dead the dedication I suppose it is to people wanting to make a better better industry and you know there'd always been a little bit of me that had hoped for that but now I get now I get to see it and that's that's a good reason to get out of bed and go to go to work every day. Yeah exactly and go on what's what's harder than you expected oh um uh I think harder than I expected is you know running a running a a small business in terms of headcount but a massive business in terms of you know the members that we have to have to have to serve um uh and doing coming from you know AG was part of a massive corporate machine and uh you know you had your hand held and lots of things were done done for you but the you know sort of um rabbit in the headlights for um some things now it's like oh yeah oh no I have to do that now um so that's that's definitely harder and um uh I think just you know I've I've had to learn about new bits of the the industry and you know sometimes keeping up with all the jargon is much harder. Yeah we're good with our jargon amazing and and uh has your view of what good leadership um changed at all um I hope not I think I hope um uh I hope that I've always understood um how I want to be a good leader anyway it might be different to to other people but um I um hope that I've always been pretty open um with everyone honesty is really is really important to me I know ironic coming from a journalist ex-journalist um and transparency as as well and just um uh I'm quite a big believer in being v vulnerable um you know nobody's perfect all of the time or not many of us uh um and I think you've got to be open to you know the fact that you don't always know what the right answer is uh sometimes you're gonna get it get it wrong but I think if you are um you know one if you learn from those mistakes but one if you don't hide from them and you take responsibility and you um can share that with people then I hope that you can lead well as well. And do you think your journalism background helps you with some of the uh say more uncomfortable questions being able to ask them uh yeah probably um I think I I think it's really um I don't know if it's helped me answering them now I think I can I can I I can ask ask them but uh I think that you know look there's uh in journalism you would always you always wanted to ask a difficult question of course because that's really the art the juicy bit of the story that you want uh and I think you learn and it's a good life lesson how to um do that in a way that isn't aggressive that isn't um that doesn't shut down people that actually opens people up to to to talk and I think that making people comfortable to share is an incredible uh skill to to learn and and and have and will help you in whatever whatever career you you have. Yeah and what do you think the industry needs more of from its leaders more confidence more honesty more long-term thinking or something else um I think uh the industry needs from us in terms of leadership for them to for the industry to be better leaders or for the industry to have better leaders for the leaders lead for leaders in the industry or to be like leaders uh I think we've got some pretty good leaders uh in this industry already actually I think um there are a lot of really good eggs um and I think that the what what we need more of is more of them um but I think the I think humanness is really important uh I think you've said it honesty is really important I do think we need big thinking and I think um courage and bravery uh are really important in leadership and the a determination to to make a difference which I think our industry has massive opportunity to do but I do think that we've got a growing number of leaders like like that.

SPEAKER_00 35:55

Yeah I I think as an industry we typically haven't also had that mindset of failing fast.

SPEAKER_02 36:01

Yeah um because it's got some quite devastating implications and it's hard to do isn't it I think you know the the nature of how real estate works makes it difficult to move at at speed you know if you are um thinking about and designing a building today it's probably not going to be a physical um place for five seven ten years depending on where you're doing it so it's it's hard to to um fail fast or or pivot um uh and I don't know how you know we've tr we've fiddled with the planning system many a time and it's not not really made it much much better um but you know maybe there are things that we can do along the way that do speed speed those um processes up so we can um fail fast and pivot but I think there's also a benefit to real estate not moving so fast and this is something I hadn't really um sort of figured out um before which was actually given the particularly now that the world is uh for want of a better word a bit crazy and all over all over the place you know it's ups and downs and so volatile actually having an industry that doesn't react to every shock can is is probably a positive yeah for us because we've seen the cycles we we we can't react quickly we know that you know we sometimes we just have to deliver and you've got to ride it out I think that builds a bit of resilience in in our industry yes we don't always react quick enough but also sometimes our ability our you know sort of slow slowness is is a real superpower because it enables us to just cut through the noise and and keep going so it's about how how do we find that balance I suppose where are the places where we can say do you know what that's not working let's pivot and where do we go it's okay like you know if the if there's not going to be stability in the world maybe we can deliver a little bit of it. Yeah and you said earlier that you wanted to challenge the sector to improve what specifically needs to improve I think um I think we we've still got a huge as we've talked about a huge way to go on eD and I massive um steps forward for us to take there I think um uh we also need to I'd I'd really like to challenge the industry on its um storytelling and how do we showcase to the wider world to policymakers that our industry um is an industry that can have a really positive impact on everything that um any political party wants to achieve you know we have um the ability to help solve some of the issues around climate we have the ability to help um bring towns and cities back to life to generate income jobs um we have the ability to create places that um make people physically healthier um uh we have the ability to create places that make people safer we have the ability to create places that make people happier um we have all of this stuff that we can deliver in the across the built environment and I'd like to challenge the industry to you know um pin its colours to that as a as a pledge of you know here we are as an industry that has this um unique ability I think to make things better yeah uh across a whole spectrum of of of different different angles you you mentioned the sustainability bond and obviously and government as well why why do you think as an industry we're and I'm I'm trying to I'm racking my brains now trying to think of where there are instances of carrot from government to real estate.

SPEAKER_00 40:48

Yeah but it feels like other industries get the carrot but we as an industry only seem to have the stick. Yeah why why do you think that that's the case?

SPEAKER_02 40:59

I think it's um it's perception isn't it and and I think it's uh and I've had many a conversation with many people over the years about the perception of real estate um and how do we do something about it because if you are on the outside in you think anyone who works in real estate makes a lot of money uh you know poor poor tenants rich landlords all that sort of stuff um and you know doesn't need any any help it's it should be helping us um and I don't really know where that where that comes from because once you're in you know that it's it's not like that um but then as an industry we've we've not done it we've not banded together to to change that and I've always asked well well why and um the answer which I hate I hope isn't the answer but the only answer I can think of is we don't need to change the perception because we're doing all right.

SPEAKER_00 42:06

Yeah do you think it's also there's not the other industries you know they don't they tend to have monopoly more of a monopolized system so they are able to lobby stronger because it's not such a disparate yeah group of people I guess.

SPEAKER_02 42:23

Yeah yeah yeah I think so I think there is um the built environment is vast isn't isn't it and there are lots of different um objectives from different different groups I think we're getting better and hopefully with um RE UK uh and the sort of amalgamation of um some of the other trade bodies there will be a l a louder louder voice that's for that's for them to to answer um but I also think it is about you know let's pick let's pick some battles to to fight you know maybe um VAT on retrofit is is one that we can go and say actually why don't you give us a carrot here and incentivize us to bring these buildings back into use by um you know maybe um you know maybe it's just a re reduction or or or s or something so that we can deliver you back but it it is about we've got to tell that story and we've got to give a solution not just um a you know hand up and and help us out.

SPEAKER_00 43:28

Yeah it's like the the French government for example they they've got a great scheme on that I'm not gonna say it because I always butcher it but essentially they they deliver grants to businesses for optimising their buildings. Yeah and putting in more intelligent solutions into their buildings. So they pay them to do that. That drives down energy load energy consumption yeah as well as obviously investing in renewables but actually In the UK, we're about to spend a huge amount of money on renewables, whereas we're not actually looking at the source problem and saying, actually, how can we make those buildings more efficient? How can we drive down the energy load? Which will then actually result in us leading less renewables to feed it.

SPEAKER_02 44:15

Yeah. And I think, you know, we've got one of the best things about the UK is we've got intelligent people, you know, here, haven't we? We've got some of the greatest universities. We've got, you know, we've got people who actually do have the solutions. And we're, as you say, we're not incentivizing um us as a nation to be the in be the innovators and and really come up with the fixes for these problems.

SPEAKER_00 44:43

Yeah, it's uh it's a funny one. And do you think it's a risk issue, a culture issue, or or what?

SPEAKER_02 44:51

I think um risk, you know, it's a risk-averse um sector, isn't it? And the you know, the risks can be can be big. So I do that, of course it's going to be a risk um issue, but I also do think it is a um culture issue as as well, you know. We're going back to when you were talking about what leadership skills do we need, you know, bravery and um uh courage. Uh and you know, there are times when you have you just have to take a risk, don't you? If you don't sometimes you've got to jump both feet um in, haven't you, and see if you see if you sink or swim. Um and um yeah, I think we tend to sort of doggy paddle around the edges sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 45:40

I guess so. I've already complimented the French, I'm gonna compliment the US now as well. It's also but it's it's that in terms of the culture thing, it's it's very much a case of championing success and people are doing well. And yeah, often in the UK we're not very good at doing that either. We like to see people fail too often.

SPEAKER_02 45:59

Do you think we like to see people fail?

SPEAKER_00 46:01

I think so.

SPEAKER_02 46:03

I don't know. Maybe there's a little bit of celebration of of that, but um, I do think we're not very good at we have a sort of um uh allergic reaction to people who pat themselves on the back and say, uh aren't I great? Uh and I think and um I'm not saying that everyone should have a massive massive ego and do that, but I think we should be proud of when we do something well and be able to talk about that in a way that um doesn't make us all feel a bit bit queasy, but I don't know that we like to celebrate people's failures. I don't know, give me an example.

SPEAKER_00 46:42

Um I think you you can look at celebrity or sport culture where you sort of people are doing well, or even entrepreneurs. Yeah. I I I mean, like, I'm not gonna back the guy, uh, but you've got to just look at James, James Watts for Brew Dog is a great example. Someone who's made made a lot of money from nothing, done an amazing job, built a big brand, but the coverage is always negative on on this person. And I've just got a question, why do we always look at the bad stuff rather than the good stuff?

SPEAKER_02 47:22

I'm not saying you just think that's just us though, is it? You could look at um we work and and tell the same story there, couldn't you? I suppose, you know, built a massive business, but maybe we didn't have all the governance in place and do all the right things that you should have should have done, and then you know, um, we'll make a document not a documentary, a um Apple TV series about it to celebrate in the the failure.

SPEAKER_00 47:49

Yeah. He came out in very good light of that though, though, didn't he? Do you think so? And got more work, got more, set up more companies.

SPEAKER_02 47:57

Yeah, but have you seen any of those? Well, is it we live or something or something else?

SPEAKER_00 48:02

Weird, isn't it? It's all very weird. Back to officers now. Um are we now at a point where the office sector has no choice but to change? And I think it has changed dramatically, right? Um but it feels there's still a lot of change to go, um, and a bit of uncertainty about where that's gonna go still. Um, but where where do you see that going in terms of from your viewpoint now?

SPEAKER_02 48:31

Yeah, I think um I think we're over the um uh do we need an office story? Um, I think we do need somewhere to be be together and do some work. I think the nature of work is changing, we still haven't settled um on that, and I think that's exciting, not not frightening. Um I think we are now in a place where um we need to have a much better understanding of human beings and how they interact with each other and how we um create the spaces that enable productivity. And I want to use that as a positive word, not a sit at your desk and do work. How do we actually create value in in businesses by um enabling them to have the right spaces for that? And that might be in a building, it might be in the spaces around it, it might be the mix of those those things. Um so I think the office sector is always going to be changing, and I think it probably always always has been. Um it's maybe we just we just weren't talking about it as as much. And it, you know, um we will um you know, we weren't commenting on uh our offices. They were just places that we went, they weren't places where um uh you know, we went to sit at there were places where we went to sit at a desk, but now they're now they're so much more than that. So I think we're talking about it a bit more.

SPEAKER_00 50:18

It's the attendance discussion, I think I guess, isn't it? Which is more evocative than say moving from one style type of office setup to you know from Celia to open plan, for example. Yeah. The people are still there. Yeah. Um now it's a case of it's always been for the last however many years, this attendance discussion. I think we've got over that, hopefully now.

SPEAKER_02 50:45

Yeah, I think so. And I think it's you know half the half the issue with attendance isn't because of the office. I think you know, having a nicer office office you'll go into more, of course. But the biggest barrier is infrastructure, isn't it? It's it's hard to get to work, or it's um expensive, or you know, the trains don't run, or um, you know, it it's the routes get us there. I think actually we're doing a brilliant job at creating places and spaces that um are delivering for human beings and businesses. It's just the friction is is getting getting there, whether that's by train, some people still go by car um or on your bike or running or what whatever it might be, it's it's that stuff that's stopping people. Because I think as humans we we do actually want to be together. Um and you know, I think having the flexibility that COVID brought around with um um I I don't like using the word hybrid because I think it is a bit like them and us and in and out, um like flexibility that you know if you need to work at home one day because you've got stuff that you're able to do better there, perfect. But um, you know, also the I think a home should be a home.

SPEAKER_00 52:17

And a lot of that flexibility already did exist, it just wasn't branded.

SPEAKER_02 52:20

Yeah. Yeah. I mean again, we didn't talk about it, you know, when we um when you see the stats, it's like, oh no one's in on a Friday. It's like, you know, if you'd worked uh at worked in real estate, no one was in on a Friday anyway. They were uh having a nice a nice lunch or on site or whatever, whatever it might be. No one was chained to their desk on a Friday pre-COVID.

SPEAKER_00 52:41

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And um going on to kind of um operational performance, how how important is operational performance now compared to traditional measures like location, rent, and specification?

SPEAKER_02 52:56

I think uh it's incredibly important, and actually it's a a sort of an um expanding part of the the BCO. You know, BCO has traditionally been very product foc focused, been about um design and and development of really great space, and that's brilliant and still a real focus for us. But we know everyone knows that you can't just build it and they will come any anymore unless the location is really good. Um, but uh you know it's got to be how you operate it, the customer service, the customer experience that is delivered through that through that building. So uh our sort of mantra now is design, develop, operate. And if you if you want to deliver excellence in offices, you've got to be really good at all of all of those those things. And I think actually the operational side is a real leveler as as well, um, because I think you can have brilliant customer experience and uh um in a building that might be in a you know less prime location in a building that might not have all of the bells and whistles. But actually, if you go into that building and you feel well looked after and the basics work, you might have a much better experience than you know, one with all the bells and bells and whistles. Um so I think it's it's becoming more and more important, isn't it? Especially as you know, the um general um um delivery of stock is getting better and better and better as you know, we just get better at building things.

SPEAKER_00 54:47

Yeah, exactly. And what would winning look like for UK officers over the next five years?

SPEAKER_02 54:52

Um I think uh them being occupied is one with people who want to be there, people who choose to be in their workspace because they know that it um uh helps them do their whatever it is they're doing better. Um I think um uh winning is adaptability as well, having that ability to um if you have a workspace that can be um flexed to um your employees or or the type of business that wants to wants to be there. And you know, that winning is um the greater good seeing that offices are our critical infrastructure and they are just as important as housing and data centers uh um when it comes to delivering, you know, for all those things that we talked about earlier, whether that's UK PLC helping um, you know, not destroy this wonderful planet of ours and making spaces that uh humans can be safe, happy, and healthy in.

SPEAKER_00 56:06

Yeah. Um, what's the one thing you want the industry to be talking about more that it currently isn't?

SPEAKER_02 56:14

I'd like it to talk more about the solutions to the viability issue that we're all facing right now, rather than just the viability issue and sharing and sharing, being open and sharing with those sort of going full circle back to where we were about are we good at sharing?

SPEAKER_00 56:37

Yeah, because people are making it work, yeah, yeah. Um and then really closing off, what does success look like for you for the next one and then five years for the for BCO?

SPEAKER_02 56:50

Um for me, success looks like um more and more people coming and joining us at the BCO, I suppose, and um leaning into the work that we're doing. Uh I would uh I think success will be delivering on some of the ambitions that we have around that. Uh, you know, you talked about operational uh earlier. How can we really enable our industry to deliver great customer um experience as much as they're delivering, you know, great base builds and great fit outs and um all of that sort sort of stuff. And um for you know, real success, I suppose, is that um they let me stay uh and um uh and I can continue to to work with our excellent members at um really delivering the kind of education, content, and networking that enables them to deliver great places to to work in.

unknown 57:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:52

And finally, if you could change one behaviour across the property industry tomorrow, what would it be?

SPEAKER_02 57:58

Oh, um one behaviour. Uh god, that's a tough one, isn't it? If I could change one behaviour, I think if I could change one behaviour, it would be that we every single person went, and it's not behavior, it's actually doing a physical thing. Because I think uh so maybe it does link to that. I think if every single person who's made a success of themselves in real estate real estate could go back to their home school and tell their story in an open and honest way, then there wouldn't be any behaviours that we need to change. That's my journalistic answer for you by not answering your question. I apologize.

SPEAKER_00 58:49

No, no, I like it, it's nice. Um, so that brings us to the end. So thank you so much for coming on a podcast today. Pleasure. Um, I think it's been some really interesting insights and some real value which we'll be able to give to our viewers and listeners. So thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02 59:05

Hi, pleasure. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_00 59:07

Thank you.

unknown 59:08

Um