SPEAKER_00 0:04

And now the founder was playing everyone. The minus that are in the most united to do something for things out control and publicly.

SPEAKER_01 0:27

Hi Taz and uh welcome to the Built Perform podcast.

SPEAKER_00 0:30

Thanks for uh having me, James.

SPEAKER_01 0:31

No worries, great to have you on. To start off with, um it'd be great to hear who are you and uh why do you do what you do?

SPEAKER_00 0:38

Yeah, so um I'm Taz. I'll take it all the way back to the beginning for you. I think that'll be great. Um so I started my career at Foxdons uh within the property management department. I um spent six years there um doing various roles within the property management department. I left as um one of the heads of department, um, and then I moved into recruitment. So recruitment isn't a thing that sort of came out of nowhere for me. It was something that I did for Foxdons sort of towards the the end of my career there. Um and I really, really enjoyed it. Uh I, you know, wanted to help people get on their career paths and also seeing people rise, I guess, throughout their career. Um, so I joined um a real estate um prop tech and ESG recruitment company called Cherry Pick People. Uh, and then I've been here for three years now.

SPEAKER_01 1:27

And so, in terms of a move, like you say, it's it's something which you were doing a bit more of, but yeah, I mean it is still a fairly different move from going from property manager to recruiter.

SPEAKER_00 1:38

Definitely, yeah, absolutely. I think see with the property management piece, it's a lot about you know, you're dealing with people's problems day to day, and it's in the the most important you know, thing to them, it's in their homes, right? Um, so some might say it's quite negative. Anyone that I talk to, they always say you're crazy for doing it. Um, why don't you do sales or lettings? Um, but I enjoyed it. I like I'm picking problems and getting, I guess, to the root cause. And once you have a solution, it's it's a win for everyone, even if you're not getting that pat at the back. Um, but then I sort of noticed I was actually the relationship aspect of it. That's something that is sort of, I guess if you have uh property management and and recruitment, that's something that sort of bleeds together, really. So I was like, look, I like talking to people, I like building relationships. Um, we built a relationship sort of, you know, from not knowing each other. So that's why I thought the recruitment piece comes in and that would suit, I guess, my personality and what I want to do moving forward. Um, I always had a really big interest in, I know there was more tech beyond Foxtens to look at. Um, and I really wanted to get into the world of finding more about them. Quite inquisitive by nature. So I want to speak to lots of different people. I might not know everything, but it's that education piece. I want to learn from you. Maybe I'll be able to teach you a couple things as we as we go on as well.

SPEAKER_01 2:52

And I guess, like you said, kind of as you probably progress in your career in a in a role in a in a particular company as well, your your day-to-day becomes more and more people management and also recruiting yourself, doesn't it? So yeah, probably I guess it is uh the transition piece was happening naturally in terms of your promotion.

SPEAKER_00 3:13

You know, going from Foxons, where you know we were a a floor-wide, probably about 60 team. Um, I had like 12 direct reports to actually losing that, but actually gaining, I guess when you think of clients and candidates, they're kind of reporting into you because they need something from you. Um, so definitely a change of sort of pace in terms of the way you work. Uh for me as well. I think at Foxens, I was, you know, Monday to Friday, it was in the office, went into recruitment. It was a little bit more relaxed in terms of expectation around coming into the office. I think selfishly, from a point of looking at a move, I I kind of wanted that. I wanted to step back a little bit, enjoy my life per se, um, and you know, do something that I could really be invested in, but also help a couple people at at the same time. I think that's that's quite fruitful for me.

SPEAKER_01 4:00

What what brought around that change? What was the the moment where she said, right, I'm gonna move from this world, which is this, to this recruitment.

SPEAKER_00 4:09

That's a good question. I think for me, um quite honestly, I had thoughts of moving, but I never sort of was like, I'm really motivated to move. But quite a few things changed in my life. Um, I met my wife, we got married, we always had COVID as well, which made us sort of made me really re reevaluate everything as well. You know, I've gone from working in an office Monday to Friday to I'm at home with everything and I'm on top of I guess you're just the the life admin that got sort of you lose. Um, but I think the the there was one evening I came home and I was like, I don't want to talk to anyone, I don't want to talk to my wife, I don't want to do anything, I just want to go to bed, and that was a real turning point for me. Um, where I couldn't maybe give 100% to a relationship because of work. And then I was like, all right, I need to check myself. And for me, I was like, I need to do something that is gonna, I guess, liven my soul up a little bit. Yeah, I feel like I'd lost myself in that in that regard. Um, so yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:08

Yeah, I think probably if most people are honest with themselves, there's there's probably points in that area where the their mental health probably isn't being where they they they wanted it to be, and it's it's realizing that and doing something about it. Yeah, definitely. That's part of it, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 5:23

Yeah, absolutely. And I think we don't we don't talk about it enough. It's that burnout piece, right? Um, but then burnout has, I feel like, become quite it's become very corporate, it's become commercialized, and I think a lot of people badge of honour, right? And I'm like, it's not a badge of honour, you you know, you don't want to be working and getting to a place where you are burning out and wearing it as a badge, you know. A lot of attitude, a lot of people that I've spoken to or or cross-paths with, it's like something that is a part of life, I imagine. And it's that's like not the life I want to be living, where I'm constantly burnt out and don't have that zest for life, and you kind of want to just stay in bed all day. Um, so that's the real turning point for me. And I think we all need to be a bit more honest around that conversation about what are what are your what are your sort of boiling points, you know? Where are you gonna say, okay, enough's enough?

SPEAKER_01 6:09

Yeah, and then doing something about it as well.

SPEAKER_00 6:12

Yeah, absolutely. A lot of people recognise sometimes that they are at that point, but then they won't do anything about it or they're scared to make a change. And I see that day in, day out doing recruitment, you know. Yeah. People who are quite I I say the word comfortable, and I'm like, that's maybe not the right term to use. If you if I hear someone's comfortable, I'm like, well, you're running out of challenges, so surely you need to push yourself either into something new at your current place or you know, change the trajectory of of your career.

SPEAKER_01 6:37

Yeah, and I think that's that's an interesting point because as a recruiter, obviously we see we see you as creating that change, but actually one of the things which you're really quite passionate about as well is actually retention as well. It's not, it's not, it's not you the churn isn't always the helpful thing, right?

SPEAKER_00 6:55

Yeah, exactly. And for us, I think there's quite a you know, lots of people have preconceptions about recruiters. It's not we're stealing your staff or we want to work on and just get get you know fees in, basically. It's you know, a good recruiter will have a level of care to aid you know the candidate and be, you know, the client. Um and you know, if a candidate says to me that they're going through X, they're burnt out, they're we won't talk about a career change immediately, we'll talk about what they can do in the interim. And if you know going through that journey means at the end of it, they're like, okay, I think I'm ready to change roles, um, then then the so be it. And you know, I had an interesting um candidate who I recently placed. Um, and she, you know, wasn't particularly enjoying work. She felt like she she was, you know, a lot of people had left, she was like the remaining SDR on the team. Business wasn't going well, there was nothing happening. She felt an obligation to stay because she was like, if I leave, what will happen to them? And there comes a point where you have to say, Well, that isn't your issue. Uh, that's not your responsibility. You know, the fact that you're the only one there, you know, they the the company themselves have to sort of you know look at that. Um, and she she actually thanked me for that conversation, and then she ended up completing the process and getting the job. So sometimes it is you need that soundboard of someone else, and recruiters can definitely be that soundboard.

SPEAKER_01 8:14

It's yeah, it's an interesting one, and something which I'll be honest, I've obviously got my notes here and um hadn't expected us to move on to the mental health side of things, but obviously it is something probably actually you have to you have to deal with, and actually, I think you are a mental health first aider. I am indeed, yeah. Um was that from your time at Foxton's?

SPEAKER_00 8:35

Yeah, so um, you know, Foxons, you know, they they do a lot in terms of like the training of the extras, and they're they're an amazing organisation to start your career and do really, really well in. Um, but yeah, I got got that um from Foxton's. That was a really interesting course. It was a much very much an eye-opener, it was an intensive three-dayer. Um, and it was talking about not the not so much of the obvious signs, but the ones that would go undetected in behaviour. And I just found that that gave me an extra layer of when dealing with people what to what to be aware of when I'm speaking to them, or a couple. It's always the insidious comments that you need to sort of you know check, you know.

SPEAKER_01 9:11

Yeah, yeah. I think um from obviously being around the industry for quite some time, you you it the industry is pretty fraught with it, and um there's there's probably some old school thinking which still wrapped around it and people aren't quite still open about talking about it. And I think the more people talk about it, the more they are talking about it, the better everything will be, right?

SPEAKER_00 9:35

Absolutely. If I you know, if you see your leader talking about their mental health, you're definitely going to be much more inclined to have an open conversation about it. But I think you're right. I think a lot of parts of our industry are are quite far behind in that. I didn't expect us to go down this, go down the mental health. Oh, but you know, now it's like open opening a can of worms. But I think you know, the more we talk about it, the more we're honest with it. I think it will do everyone some good in in talking about your feelings.

SPEAKER_01 10:01

Yeah, 100%. I mean, for example, like um I've been quite I'm quite open and honest about the fact that I've had anxiety issues in my past, etc. And um the amount of people in the industry and outside the industry, but particularly in the industry, and they go, I'm so glad you've spoken about it because I'm going through the same thing, I've been through the same thing. Um, I haven't told anyone until you you've opened up about it, and yeah, then they can start speaking. It's actually the talking about it to other people is where you start to really see your improvement and get get better.

SPEAKER_00 10:31

It's almost like that pennies drops for them. It's like, oh, actually, that's I'm not the only one suffering about that. And I'm like, actually, most of us in this room have probably got some some kind of mental health um going on, you know, anxiety of something that's very sort of close to me as well, something that I had um and still have till till this day. I don't think you know you have anxiety anymore. It never goes away, I think ultimately you can have you know all all the therapy or all the medication pushed it onto you, and it's something that I think you then manage by a being honest with you and and b um having your own strategies and what works for you because it's not one size fits all, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_01 11:06

No, no, you've moved into um a focus on real estate and prop tech and ESG in particular, those I think prop tech and ESG within the real estate is kind of your your key focus now, isn't it? Yeah, definitely. In terms of um the recruiting world. Um and I've I know from LinkedIn and other sources, and speaking to yourself, there's a real passion there for this area. What apart from obviously your background in more of the I guess non-commercial real estate world of Fox and what what's what's driven that passion for you in terms of Prop Tech and um and ESG?

SPEAKER_00 11:42

So I think there's particularly proptechs that I I'm more inclined to really love and and be passionate for. Um I think we're in a real pivotal moment of of life and then the world where we need technology for good. And real estate, you know, if you think traditionally, that's always something that is uh ever prevalent in your life, right? You're always in some type of building or living in a home, you're using an office space, and I think your average person isn't thinking about how those spaces work. Um, but you know, as you well know, being in this space is that's sometimes when I'm always thinking about the those types of things. Um, but for me, I think it's working with businesses that are driving that change and wanting that that tech for good piece. That's something that I'm really inclined to get get behind. And I think that's really important in this day and age where you know some things unfortunately we're seeing a rollback on in the world, you know. Um I won't go into I won't mention anyone particular. Um but I think it it's important. And I think you're not gonna Are we talking Donald Trump?

SPEAKER_01 12:42

Oh, we're talking Donald.

SPEAKER_00 12:44

I can't even say his name. Um, but I think you know, if you want to see change and you want to embody that change, you need to advocate it at every point that you you can be. So for me, I'm like, well, I work in recruitment. Someone's gonna be like, oh well, you work in recruitment, what can you do? And I'm like, I can work with these businesses to get the right people in to make sure that they're affecting and hitting what their business goals are, uh essentially. Because if you're not getting the right people in, you're not getting you're not staying true to your what your message or your goal is. And a lot of the prop tech businesses, as you've seen, are in the space of sustainability and um and so on.

SPEAKER_01 13:17

Because obviously there's a bit of a a stigma, I guess, um, related around prop tech from the history of it, and some people see it as a bit of a dirty word, and some people are trying to move it away. It's like I guess the same issues which have happened with ESG and sustainability and the changing of changing of the naming of something, but it's still being the same thing, right? Yeah. But you called it prop for good, which uh I prop prop for good. Tech for good, I mean tech for good. Tech for good, which uh yeah, I really like that. Um that's that's something which I hadn't heard before, but I think it that that's a really interesting way to look at it. So, in terms of what changes have you seen um in prop in property technology in terms of recruitment and any trends there which you're seeing?

SPEAKER_00 14:02

Yeah, so I think the biggest one is is we've had it drawed into us from the very beginning of time. It's um you need a degree, right? You need a degree to go and get that job that you want to go and do. And more and more now, I'm seeing that that's not the case. And seeing a lot of businesses do sort of skills-based hiring. So obviously, with the rise of AI and and so on, I think that's probably the biggest and prevalent in our space. A lot of businesses are looking at people who are upskilled in that area, or have they got particular certifications around you know, certain things that the business is trying to do, and we're moving less away from you need to be Cambridge or Oxford educated. And I'm not saying that that still isn't, you know, you still need to have that, and some hiring people still want that, but I'm a massive fan of I don't think you need a degree personally to unless you're either being a doctor, an engineer, or you're doing something quite, you know, science-y. Um I think most of the roles in our in our in our space, you know, you don't need a degree, and I'm a massive fan of not having that, removing that bias away, right? Um, I had someone say to me the other day that, you know, we want someone who's from you know one of the top, you know, 10 universities. And I was like, well, why why do you want that? Why do you think that that's gonna be a good thing? Because I can go get you someone who graduated the top of their grade in Oxford, but what if they join you and they're not very good? And he was like, Well, they're gonna be good because they've been toxic. I was like, you know, necessarily, look, I'm I'm pre-judging and like you are, but you know, this person just went to maybe goldsmiths. I'm using goldsmiths as an example because I went to goldsmiths, but you know, they may just be as good, but they also might work as hard as well to where they want to be. Or didn't go to university, or didn't no, or didn't go to university. Or didn't, yeah, or didn't go to university, absolutely, yeah. So I'm just like, we can't have those those preconceptions.

SPEAKER_01 15:42

So definitely I'm I'm I'm pleased for the better, we're moving towards more of a skills-based hiring model, and not just the skills, I I think there's the skills-based, but also something for me in terms of the hiring thing is obviously we have some quite specialist roles, right, in what we we're doing, right? We're we're dealing with Emmanuel and um controls, etc., in in buildings, right? And property. So there's got to be some specialisms there, but actually it's it's a person as well. And I think it's the skill, and there's also the person who can fit into that team and the dynamic of the teams as well, which I think I think people are starting to wise up to that a little bit more and looking at the fit a bit a bit more.

SPEAKER_00 16:25

Absolutely, and I I like I like that you you do that because for me it what I call it the skill versus will analogy. Um, so if someone's got the skill, fantastic, but do they have the will to or or the capability? Or um a good friend of mine, Rupert, will say um aptitude to to to do the job. And sometimes, you know, five times out of ten, perhaps not. Yeah. Um, so I think that looking at the the will, should we say, is is is is a big thing for me as well. If you're not not quite got everything, but there's something about you where I know you're gonna come in and work hard and you're gonna soak you're gonna be a sponge and you're gonna soak everything up, then I'm gonna encourage that risk to be taken.

SPEAKER_01 17:04

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I mean, I had a really interesting chat with um Max Jones of Zero Degrees. Yeah, um, he's obviously all about school leavers and coming into industries from the school leaver route rather than going through the university side of things, and I I'm all for that. I think if you've got a passion, you want to get into the industry, you shouldn't into an industry, you shouldn't be held back by it just being having a university degree.

SPEAKER_00 17:28

And like let's diversify the the the workforce a little bit, guys. I mean, I feel like we have this like I'm still having this conversation, and I've been having this conversation for like the last 10 years. Um, and I feel like I'm still always to that start. Don't get me wrong, I think we've got a lot better in in having those you know points and removing those biases, um, which but then I think with the rise of AI, we know AI can be inherently biased, so because it's being trained um it in that way. So I think there's we'll probably move on to a bit more of that diversity piece in a bit, but you know, I think again that's a really important thing, the thing to have. And going back to the sort of skills aspect of it, something that I really want to teach hiring managers is how do I remove how do you remove those unconscious biases when you're speaking to people? You know, how do you remove that affinity? You went to Oxford, I went to Oxford. Of course, you're gonna feel an instant, you know, connection. We need to remove that because you're immediately being biased.

SPEAKER_01 18:24

It's hard though, isn't it? Um it's unconscious. So yeah, it's it's breaking it's breaking down something.

SPEAKER_00 18:29

Guilty, guilty, you know, do it still, but you know, it's having that the yourself. Yeah, exactly. Being aware of it, I think I did that, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:37

How do you go about being successful and getting great matches between candidates and and companies?

SPEAKER_00 18:44

So I think it really starts with qualifying the client and and the role that they're looking for. Um, it's for me, I will say no to a company if they are A, um, they email me, they send me the brief in the email, and then they ask for CVs, and that's like the third line, and that's all one email. What I want to do is great, we've got a role on. I want to jump on a couple calls with you to really understand, you know, A, your motivations to hire, and B, who is it that you want to hire? And so I think the qualification piece is really, really important. I think a good recruiter will do that. Um, for me, it's important to understand, you know, what are your non-negotiables versus like what can we sort of what's probably not important. Um, but and then the second thing is is having a really good and structured process in place. I think where a lot of um recruitment processes fall down is lack of transparency around what the interview process is, who you'll be meeting at every point. Um, and then the overarching thing is time. We've seen time, you know, I say time kills all deals. That is something that it is very prevalent again in recruitment, where you know, if you're not setting expectations for time for time scales, then you're you're gonna lose that person that you end up really liking. Um, and then flipping it back over to the candidate again, it's that qualification piece. It's you know what motivates you to move, what motivates you to what's gonna get you really excited. Um, and when you speak, you know, start to build a relationship, you start to know your candidates to be like, what I know what's gonna get you excited, and it's not gonna be maybe this property management role in in northwest London for a single estate agency. I know it's not gonna be that because that's what you're doing, it's gonna be something that's gonna be a bit shiny, a bit brandy, something that's gonna maybe make your your skill set a bit diverse, but again, it's you're not gonna get that all from one conversation, it's gonna be many conversations in between. So, I mean, some recruiters out there probably listen gonna listen to this and be like, Well, how'd you get anything done? But you can still do all that with speed as well, you know?

SPEAKER_01 20:44

Yeah, and then say from your experience in in the sector, um, do you have any insight to companies which you feel are really doing it right? And then also, how can others in the industry learn from that approach?

SPEAKER_00 20:58

That's a that's a good question. Um, I think I'll shout out so there's two two companies I've worked with previously. That's um XWatts um and BrickLane. I think what they've done is they've realized actually we don't have anything in place in terms of talent acquisition process at the moment. Um, they've come to us to ask for that. It's gone beyond the we're hiring for this role, can you help us? It's we're hiring, but we need help building out a process or how to interview, etc. And I think where where I've seen the great successes in getting good people in is because they've worked with a recruiter who is able to just support them beyond just sending CVs and making anything try try to stick. So I think though those two are doing right in terms of the way that they qualify, the way they get people into process and then managing that process as well. And I'm gonna plug here, but you should always have recruiter if you can, and the budget allows for you to help manage that process as well. You know, there's nothing more painstaking than. Getting to an end of a process, and someone doesn't take the job because of a really small minor thing that could be rectified.

SPEAKER_01 22:06

In in that sense as well, throughout the process, obviously, I assume you you see the full spectrum of the interview process, and sometimes it might be a single interview and hard and sometimes you might have some very drawn-out processes. Or is it Goldilocks moment is a the perfect way to do it in your view, or that will depend on the role of the company, etc. But yeah, 10 10 interviews over the course of nine months, for example, I'm sure you'd be like, and no, that's I mean someone listening to this and they'll realise that they've that's that that's them, they've been doing that.

SPEAKER_00 22:45

But um look, 10 interviews is excessive. But I agree with you in terms of we need to base it around role. I think the sweet spot for me and where I've seen like you can turn around and hire in about four to five weeks is that three to four interview process. Um, but it's also about diversifying how you're doing that. So maybe your first stage is is a team's cool for 30 minutes, just a really nice soft opener. Second is maybe getting them to come in doing a little bit more competency-based. The third, I like a task, you know. I think if it's appropriate to do a task, then do so. And I think if it's relevant to a role, I mean, we had one where you know, we had a marketing role and the candidate had to do presentations about what they would how they would market the product essentially or a new product that's coming to the business. Um, and then the fourth and final, I like to keep it nice and light. By that point, you should know if you want to hire this person, um, go out for a coffee or have you know a 30-minute coffee chat. You know, I think it's good to humanize the process and just not think it's candidate one, candidate two, it's do I get one with this person day to day? Also, really important for the candidate. Can I see myself working here with these people as well?

SPEAKER_01 23:56

You know, yeah, no, that's good to hear. I've I'm a big fan of the uh if someone says 10 stages to me, I'm like, no way, I'm not working that I'm a big fan of the the coffee chat as well, mixed in because I think breaking them out of the interviews, the traditional interview setting is is hugely beneficial because you know I'm I'm not very good at being in an interview or an exam setting, but I know outside of that I'm I'm pretty strong at other things, so it's it's being able to see that.

SPEAKER_00 24:28

Yeah, absolutely. And I think there's a some something about having a coffee chat that disarms yourself and also the person that you're speaking to as well, gets them to relax a little bit, and that's when you can really find who you're truly hiring, and it's not you know, it's not a massive, it's not a 30 window window, it's not a massive glimpse, but you get a an air of what this person is about, and you want to get the best out of them, right? So you need to start learning those things, and that doesn't need to just happen on day one where they start and turn up for for the role, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:58

And then in terms of the industry and it's it's changing face, I guess probably slowly changing face, but changing, changing face. Um what innovation are you seeing um in the industry which is exciting you? And obviously, we'll probably talk about AI, but kind of what what are you seeing at the moment in terms of technology innovation which is really exciting you in terms of where where the in commercial real estate's going?

SPEAKER_00 25:26

Yeah, absolutely. So I think obviously we have to we have to address the the elephant in the room, which is AI. Um, I think a lot of people, I mean look, I'm an embracer of AI. I think it can do amazing things, but we need to use it responsibly. Um, and I think that's where we're going. And I think look, most companies I am seeing, you know, they're doing it right, they're integrating it in the right ways and not replacing their people. I think there was an Australian founder who replaced actually, no, we'll we'll talk we'll talk about Klarna, actually. I don't know if you saw Klarna, they replaced majority of their staff with AI. That hasn't gone to plan, and now the founder is begging everyone to come back to Klarna. Um, it's a really interesting interest to me, so I'll have to I'll have to send it to you. But I think that's the wrong way to do it. The way we're seeing it used in in you know commercial real estate, for example, is you know the way people are being monitored and how they're using the building, but not necessarily needing someone there to do that. It's you can have a bit of software, you can have a bit of AI to do that, and I think that's really exciting. Um, I guess from a recruitment perspective, you know, recruiters, they're great at you know, the best recruiters is it's all about relationships. So the admin we're not so good at. Um, I don't mind the admin from time to time because it's something that you know you can just do, but you know, why would I want to spend half my time doing admin when I can get an AI to do it for me and I can focus on actually building those relationships? So I think for me, AI is it's it's polarizing. It's I love it, we need to use it responsibly. There's also the piece for me going back to the tech for good is obviously impact on planet as well. You know, I was thinking I was looking at you know what you know, one prompt in Chat GPT does to the planet, and I'm like, okay, do we really need Chat GPT to write our shopping lists or write me a meal plan meal plan for the week? No, probably not. So again, it's around that responsibility piece, but again, that comes down to education ultimately, and that has to start from I think from from school age, really, as as this sort of I guess snowbles into what it might be in 10, 15, 20 years.

SPEAKER_01 27:27

Yeah. And then um, what is the impact which do you think is gonna happen for yourself in in your role as well with AI? Because obviously, like you said, you're embracing it, you're utilising it to kind of as a co-pilot, I guess. Um absolutely. But do you see it going further?

SPEAKER_00 27:47

Definitely, I think so. I think um living in this world for 30 years, you you know, you you you've become maybe susceptible to being a bit pessimistic about things like that. Um look, I I do you know, we've started to see already. I've just mentioned the Kana thing. I think that there's there'll be people out there that want to replace their workforce with AI because it's more cost-effective. I think it's something in recruitment, I think it's something that you just can't do, unfortunately, because recruitment's built on relationships ultimately. Um people say it's a sales role. I'm like, no, it's this is a relationship-led role. Um, there's some sales aspect to it, um, which I enjoy less of. Um, but ultimately, you can can can a chat bot or someone, you know, a bit of tech sitting inside a computer, can can that ultimately run relationships for you? I don't think so. Um, so I think there'll be someone out there who invents their recruitment. There probably is someone in the recruitment company who's got some AI agents going, but how successful are you going to be? And also we know that it's not completely foolproof as well, you know, going back to it has its biases, right? I think uh that got everyone, I was jumping on the trend of everyone doing those action figures. Do you remember on LinkedIn getting it through Chat GPT? And I was like, actually, this is making me more white than Asian, and I was like, there's a bias right there. And then I started seeing some other people who had done it. Um, and I was like, actually, that's really interesting. That's starting to make me think. So, yeah, I I think in terms of the the space itself, um, there'll be part of someone who does it, maybe I'm hoping it doesn't go that well, um, to you know, warrant merit for us to actually do the frontline stuff.

SPEAKER_01 29:24

Yeah, I mean, we we saw in the news about workday, for example, didn't we? Yeah, the bias.

SPEAKER_00 29:29

Their ATS system, you know, filtering it filtering out things. And again, that's you know something that I you know talked about. We'll talk about with candidates day in, day out, sending hundreds and hundreds of applications and they're being filtered out by an AI system due to keywords or you know, the the words. I think it was over 40s, wasn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. So again, it's always comes back to are we using it responsibly, are we educating our people about it? If AI's gone through something, can we trust it enough that a human needs to go back through it? I don't think we're quite there yet.

SPEAKER_01 30:00

Yeah, and I think a big issue with that in terms of the wider lurk is um and with we've still got this huge issue, which is uh really the gender data gap, right? Um which we've got in the in the industry, but worldwide in every in pretty much every walk of life, there's this massive gender data gap that typically when research is being done, it was historically done on me, right? Um sat in an office wearing a polyester suit, right? And back in the suit navy. It's probably maybe you were probably wearing a tie, and it's back in the 60s. Um, and a lot of our data modelling, a lot of the research still exists from back then, and if we're still utilising that to inform how we're doing stuff now in a much more diverse um world, and also office if we're going down to that that level, um we're not going to be getting it right still based on based on the fact that the data still is working off too old old and very undiverse data.

SPEAKER_00 31:12

Yeah, yeah, absolutely, definitely. I I I I agree with you, and I think you know diversity again is a a massive buzzword. Um again, we're seeing rollbacks by Donald.

SPEAKER_01 31:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:25

Um and unfortunately, I think we're in a quiet i i you know, look, we don't have Donald in the UK, but we've got certain people that are respiring to be like him. And um that is something that's going to be, you know, come the next couple years, I think, really under threat. And so it's the responsibility of us as allies to be able to really, you know, a enforce that, make sure that's being practiced, but also not doing it performatively. Um, I'm not someone who shouts about it constantly. Uh I probably should, to be fair, I should probably do it a lot more, but where I spot a gap to educate, you know, I will do that now. Whereas maybe if you asked me five years ago if I was doing that, I probably wasn't, but I'm much more aware of it now. Um and it's funny when things sort of go under threat, it kind of prompts you in in into action. But I think you know, us as people need to get better at sort of being more proactive, you know.

SPEAKER_01 32:16

Yeah, and it's it's it's that allyship which is gonna be so important, right?

SPEAKER_00 32:21

Yeah, exactly. Not you know, Pride Month changing your banners and stuff, you know, to to refer to Pride Month. That's amazing, that's great, you know, because you know, 20, 30 years ago that that wasn't there, but what else are you doing beyond that, you know, once a year, you know, to support the people that are in your workforce, but also attract um that pool of people to your workforce as well.

SPEAKER_01 32:42

Yeah, and on on that, you are obviously the chair of the LGBTQ plus network at Fox and Wayne.

SPEAKER_00 32:48

Yeah, that was yeah, that was great.

SPEAKER_01 32:50

How how did you find this side? Um, especially in this is not really a commercial real estate world, but it is it's real estate, right? Yeah. So how how did you find that?

SPEAKER_00 33:01

Look, I think it was interesting. I think the state agency is is a polar again, a polarizing topic, you know. Um, I think I was very lucky in in at Fox's. You know, I've got nothing bad to say about them. Anyone that sort of says gives me the eye twitch when I say Foxton's, I'm like, well, what are you twitching at? Because I had a fantastic six years there. Um, and it was a great place for me uh uh you know to start off post-university.

SPEAKER_01 33:25

It's probably ex-university students who uh who grew up around Clapham and seeing the mini coopers, it's probably where you're getting the eye twitch from, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 33:32

But absolutely, and look, don't get me wrong, for the first couple years, I definitely didn't want to say telling I would sit in an Uber and an Uber driver would ask me, What'd you do? Who'd you work for? And I definitely didn't say who I worked for. Um, but in in terms of my career and and my time there, I had some fantastic and amazing people that supported me and you know wanted me to be in those positions where I could affect change. And we have some really, really great diversity networks. I had I was part of the LGBTQ, but we also had you know Afro Foxons and the the Asia network as well. They recently started doing the last couple years, you know, celebrating Ramadan, doing like a really you know big like breaking your fast meal. So I think Foxens are definitely one of the leaders in that space in terms of you know what they're doing. I mean, I'll caveat to say that there can always be more to be done. Um, but I think in a place where people aren't doing as much as they could be, Foxton's Foxons is doing it. So for me, uh taking up that position, it was a no-brainer. Um, there was no politics about it or anything, but everyone was very happy. Every people wanted me, wanted me to do that. And we ran some really successful events. We were pride every year. We had, you know, and we always wanted to come back to the messaging of how can we do it in real estate. So we had you know, people like tonic housing come and and and give talks, and they talked about their LGBT plus retirement home in in Vauxhall, that the you know, which is amazing, not a lot of people know about that. Um, and and and just basically bringing everyone together who's either you know a queer person or you know wants to be a really good ally and and showing them how that can be done and what that means to you know someone like me.

SPEAKER_01 35:09

Do you think the industry is generally improving and changing?

SPEAKER_00 35:15

I don't know enough queer people out in the industry. Um, there are a few pockets of us, I would say, but there's not anyone that's coming up to me to be like, hey, you know, I'm a queer person. Well, what do we do in in this industry where we're not doing anything to promote that that inclusivity? There are a few events that have been knocking around. Um, they're really still focused around obviously women, which again is is still really important for us to do, but there isn't anyone anything specific for queer people or trans people per se. Um, so I think we've still got some work to do around there. So that's something that I definitely want to be taking a bit of a lead on. So if anyone is listening and they want to do that, let me know. Um, but I think yeah, that there's still lots to be done, and again, talking about it, you know, I think people don't want to, you know, don't want to put their foot in it per se. But I'm quite happy and open to to to field questions. I know not everyone's gonna be, um, but the politest thing to do is always just ask.

SPEAKER_01 36:14

So moving on to I guess the voice part of it, I think it's it's quite a it's quite a good uh good segue in in that respect, isn't it? Um LinkedIn. Yes. Um so it's a pretty powerful tool.

SPEAKER_00 36:32

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 36:33

Uh you have a great personal brand and a very um strong presence on LinkedIn as well.

SPEAKER_00 36:41

Yeah, I mean, thank you. I I'd like to think that's I've got some reach going on. Um it's definitely important, it's an important tool. Um, a lot of people are either sharing, I guess, the surface stuff of what they're doing day to day, a lot of other people don't like oversharing, which is absolutely fine. But I think in terms of building your own brand and really thinking about yourself beyond your current workplace, that's really important in this day and age. Um, we've seen the impact and rise of social media, right? You know, everything now is a like and a scroll or a comment away. And I think LinkedIn is a thankfully actually one of the nicer places and pockets of the internet to be in right now. Um I think it's important to network, and you're only gonna network if you're putting stuff out there. So, you know, I say this, I've been lax, I haven't posted in a week. But I think it's important to be able to build, and in order to do that, you need to be posting about things, and it's just not the I'm celebrating a promotion or I'm celebrating moving jobs. It's what are you doing day-to-day? How's that gonna add value to the people in my network? What did they want to see? And what also for me is you know, previously, what posts have done really well. The ones that I found is if you have a really good controversial hook, um, people love that. And but that's all stuff that you know I've had to learn myself. Um, but I know that there's you know courses and stuff out there where you can, but I've learned that because I've seen other people on LinkedIn talk about it.

SPEAKER_01 38:12

Yeah, and you you obviously mentioned you hadn't done a post in a week. Tat tut uh consistency is key, about this, don't worry.

SPEAKER_00 38:20

Consistency is key.

SPEAKER_01 38:22

Um but it is a time commitment, right?

SPEAKER_00 38:25

And it oh gosh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:27

And it's it's it is quite a lot, isn't it? People don't probably take into consideration and also don't get me started on the ones which you've put the most time in tend to be the ones which actually Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:38

You get like one like and two hours, and you're like, I've got to delete that now. Um, no, it is a real-time commitment. I will say I will say that. Um, but for me it's like if I can put an hour or two aside every week to I guess draft content idea. Look, I'm not posting things that are changing the world or changing the landscape of LinkedIn. I'm not like a top one percent contributor or anything by that means, but one to two hours a week where I can really brainstorm what kind of messages I want to sort of bring out. You know, is it something that I want to talk about the roles that I'm recruiting for? Is it something that's happened to me? For me, I'm always a massive fan, and I think you know this is posting about my unwinding time because I think that's really important. And again, it's getting that conversation going around looking after your your well-being, right? Physically or mentally. It's taking a pause, you know. I think LinkedIn again we can be quite crowded in terms of what you're seeing and what's being farmed and what your algorithm's also bringing up.

SPEAKER_01 39:32

So wake up at 3 a.m.

SPEAKER_00 39:33

Wake up at 3 a.m. and I became a billionaire by 11am. And I was like, no, that's that's that's you know, that's really great for that person. Um, but you don't have to be doing that, or you know, took an ice bath at 5 a.m. You know, there was that guy that went viral for his um his morning routine. I don't know if you if you saw it, but woke up and he would have all these things done for him, and you know, to take a you know, splash his face with ice and stuff. I'm like, you don't have to be doing that. That's not the the the benchmark for being successful in this society.

SPEAKER_01 40:02

It's it's it's hopefully getting the honest stuff out. And I think people people see through through that to a degree, and yeah, that's why it comes viral, but that's also probably helping their brand a little bit, but you know, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 40:13

I think the the big thing at the moment is you know spotting if if something's being AI generated, and I'm like, if they want to AI generate a post, like just let them, you know, it's fine.

SPEAKER_01 40:22

Just it's yeah, and also there's people out there who you know might be dyslexic or like me. I'm I'm I'm not dyslexic, but my my I'm not that eloquent. Um, and I can't sometimes in writing and words get across what I want to get across. So utilising it as help to generate what you actually want to convey is fine is really useful. Yeah, absolutely. Utilising it just constantly, I guess, is could be is not that helpful either. But I mean utilising it in the right way is they shouldn't have any shame about that. Or and we shouldn't be shaming people about it either.

SPEAKER_00 41:02

If someone's got a long dash in in their paragraph, you know, I spoke to them. Just delete those long dashes, though. Just delete them, yeah. I spoke to someone the other day and they were like, I've used long dashes before chat GPT, and I was like, is that true or is that but you know, I was like, I've seen I've seen proof of it as well from a colleague actually, he definitely does use a lot of. How do you even long dash? I don't even know how to do that.

SPEAKER_01 41:24

Yeah, um, but yeah, I've I I'm totally of the opinion if if if you're utilizing it and you're on it, what what's what's the harm?

SPEAKER_00 41:33

What's the harm, exactly? You've got to start somewhere, right? Someone it might be quite a daunting journey.

SPEAKER_01 41:37

It's horribly daunting.

SPEAKER_00 41:38

Yeah, yeah, definitely. I've been able to use, you know, I've had LinkedIn for ages, but only when I started recruitment, I was like, actually, it's a very powerful tool in recruitment to build connections and get seen by people the people that you want to be seen by. Um, but it is very daunting and as you said, time consuming as well. So you need to make sure that you're not being wrapped up in in the day-to-day, you don't need to be on LinkedIn constantly to or you know, smashing out content. You can just have a bit of time in the week, plan what you want to put out there, because also that's really important, um, and then leave it at that and not constantly doom scroll and look at it, and everyone's doing better than me, and I'm not waking up and having an ice bath at 5am. We can leave that out of the door, you know?

SPEAKER_01 42:20

Although I wouldn't mind waking up and having that.

SPEAKER_00 42:23

Yeah, well, I mean, I've never have you had a have you had an ice bath? Yeah, have you?

SPEAKER_01 42:27

Yeah, I I I do the cold shower. I think I've come to the wrong podcast. Um so what are candidates and emplo employees really looking for in 2025 from from a job, would you say?

SPEAKER_00 42:45

Um so I'm saying a bit of a flip now. A lot of people, I think historically the hybrid working has always been a uh a catender for causing the most, I guess, talk around it. Um, that's been a very debated topic. I think look, right now, where we are as an economy, right? You know, interest has been cut, but again, we saw this morning inflation's like the highest, right? Wages are stagnant. I think for a lot of people it's cost of living is going up. They need some more money around the security, right? So I think salaries is I think probably trumping the the can I work from home. Yeah, that question. Um, I still think can I work from home? Work from home is still a very much a prevalent question. Other things that I've seen are what benefits am I getting? Am I getting healthcare? Um, pension has come up a lot recently. So a lot of people are thinking about pension contributions. Are is this come, you know, are they just doing what they're required to do legally or am I getting a bit more? Um, and then other things. I think uh one newer trend I'm seeing is what about my professional development? Um, more and more companies are allocating budgets for professional development. You know, I've got a company at the moment who are offering about a thousand pounds a year, you know, towards to spend however. they want you know obviously it relating to to role so again you know those are the questions that I that I'm facing but I think the the the top two would be the salaries and and the the working from home piece which I I don't think that's going to go away anytime soon.

SPEAKER_01 44:14

So big picture um why do you think change in commercial real estate is required and why is it so important?

SPEAKER_00 44:23

So I think we need to get better at how we use buildings and it's not just all about building brand new buildings and making them work it's how are we retrofit like I think I'm a massive fan of retrofit and I think it's really really interesting it's how am I going to take this old building to repurpose it without it costing millions billions of pounds or taking years to do um but that's one thing another aspect is goes into how are we using buildings you know when our world of work is changing you know we're not in the office constantly Monday to Friday anymore. It's are we doing the responsible things when the building is empty or when is no one in or if you see that you've got a co-working space and only two people have booked in what are what provisions are we making to make sure that a we're not using as much as electricity or the water or are we shutting off part of the building um and with with an example of that is um I live right by the TK Maxx um head office in Watford. They are they I think they're in mostly Monday to Thursday and Friday um they're not in they shut the entire building down lights off everything nothing's operating um and I think that's really cool because you do see a lot of buildings empty with the lights on yeah with things that don't have to be on but they do a full shutdown nothing is on and they own quite a significant portion of I call it the business park but they're they are across that across all their buildings so I think we all that's a really small step right to someone. So I think if we all started doing that that would equal big gains and yeah really interesting that they do do that. So for me it's again responsible using our brains what piece of tech can we you know can we integrate tech where we're like actually we know that Tuesdays isn't busy so let's shut part of the buildings down. And I know some companies are are doing that already. Yeah and then I like to close off with the final question which is does commercial real estate need uh evolution or revolution I feel like we've had the evolution maybe a revolution yeah um just to be just to be a bit controversial but revolution because I think look we can always do better evolution it you know that's great and we should always be you know that you know we shouldn't say this is the one idea that we're gonna have and that's it that's something that should ever be evolving but I think there needs to be a point where we're like actually doing things the same way we've been doing for the last 50 to 100 years is isn't working. Again we're at a pivot pivotal point where we've got climate deniers that are in are in the most you know pivotal seats in in in the world um we need to do something before things are ultimately get out of control and hey we can't live here anymore you know yeah um but that's a whole can of worms I feel like I'm about to open and I'm not opening them because I'll start to sound crazy.

SPEAKER_01 47:14

On that note thank you so much uh for joining me today.

SPEAKER_00 47:18

No thank you for having me. Brilliant chat thank you.

SPEAKER_01 47:20

Yeah um really interesting and loved hearing kind of your your whole passion for the real estate industry and building the relationships and specifically prop tech and how we can utilize better. Yeah we've covered a lot of diverse ground um and some of it which I wasn't really expecting to cover so it is it was great chat so thank you so much for joining me in really interesting so thank you thank you